Nick-D talk26 October UTC I filed a request for abritration a week ago and about 24 hours before Nick-D started his own attempt to have me blocked, which has so far proved unsuccessful. Nick-D was subsequently added as a party to my Arbcom application. My application is still under consideration by Arbcom. Communicat talk31 October UTC. The U. France, Belgiam, Poland, Denmark, and many more allied countries were overrun, and could only help with their resistence units.
There were a number of military units operating from Britain from the overrun countries. Secondly, many though not all historians hold a contested view that the USSR and Nazi Germany were allies as it happens British troops were just about to fight against the Soviets in the Winter War and I'd motion the Soviet Union should be added to the axis-alligned list as well, with a clear explanatory note saying that they were aligned only.
This puppet state was binary options strategy bagration and actually neutral, no war were declared by Vichy France on any Ally. Re Second. This is hardly a majority view see, e. First off, consensus seems to be that the Vichy regime participated in the Holocaustwhich was a Nazi war crime and hardly the action of a neutral power.
It doesn't seem right to put the Vichy fascists in the same bracket as say neutral Sweden.
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Second, I am not sure how we are going to measure 'majority view'. I am not sure who can assert what is the majority, or the consensus among reliable sources. I happen not to subscribe to the "ally" view myself, but an encyclopaedia should mention that some significant scholarship has identified the Nazi-Soviet Pact as a de facto binary options strategy bagration.
I don't quite buy the Japan point - if the Soviets partitioned Korea with Japan then yes I would concede it; but the Nazi-Soviet Pact was different, it was not an arms-length relationship, it involved joined-up thinking and hot wars.
As I say, a think a clear cautionary note would be appropriate next to the Red Flag in the axis aligned list. I'd cite Snyder. As such, this discussion belongs on Paul's talk page. The caption reads: "Mistreated and starved prisoners in the Mauthausen camp, Austria, The article has already achieved good status well done so I'm just throwing it out there. It's not 'taking sides' or POV to state a historical fact. Firstly, these details are redundant for the lede, secondly, removal of the text about German strategic goals is incorrect, thirdly, the text "The Soviets then invaded eastern Poland on 17 September and deported up to 1.
Fourthly, the words "supplied by the Soviet Union" are misleading, because, as Erickson demonstrated, Soviet support played minimal role in German war efforts in Western Europe, it just helped binary options strategy bagration prepare Barbarossa.
Fifthly, the words: " a week after the Nazi-Soviet Pact was signed in Moscow. Germany invaded western Polandwhich led to the declarations of war on Germany by France and most of the countries of the British Empire and Commonwealth.
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Post hoc non propter hoc: Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was a final argument for launching the German invasion of Poland, however, it was not a reason. Hitler decided to attack Poland in springwhen the Soviet-German rapprochement hadn't even started. In any event, all these changes should be discussed on the Bitcoin load page first.
You are welcome to ask me to self-revert, by the way.
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In a nutshell, my concern is that the lede completely omits the Nazi-Soviet Pactthe Soviet war supplies to Germany ref. This is a glaring omission that needs to be rectified, one way or another.
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One could add, to be sure, that in terms of numbers Stalingrad and the Soviet war effort against the Nazis completely dwarfed the Desert War at the moment the lede implies some kind of equalitylet alone the Western Front.
So far I'm not seeing this is a minority, fringe theory but a concurrence among three historians from Oxford, Harvard and Yale respectively.
Talk:World War II/Archive 43 - Wikipedia
In actuality, only invasion of Poland was connected to the pact directly. Invasions of the Baltic states were, strictly speaking, not invasions at all.
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Moreover, Hitler considered coercive annexation of these states by the USSR as a demonstration of Soviet hostile intentions towards Germany and, therefore, as violation of the pact which later was used as one of pretexts for Barbarossa. North Bukovina was also annexed not invaded in violation of the pact. All of that is too confusing to be discussed binary options strategy bagration the lede. He doesn't state that this trade was a pre-condition to the conquest of Western Europe though. Binary options strategy bagration s : Edward E.
Ericson, III. Source: German Studies Review, Vol. We still have no fewer than 3 reliable sources describing the Nazis and Soviets as allies, My hunch is that many more sources say the same thing.
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That may be controversial, but WP asks us to include controversy. No less than people have this talk page watchlisted, so it's likely that other editors will join this discussion. It would be helpful if you proposed some textual changes to the article here including supporting references. Let's separate the several issues here. The 3 sources above point to the use of the Soviet flag in the Axis box, because they all refer to the Nazis and Soviets as "allies" So lets deal with one thing at a time.
Am happy to deal with the issue of Soviet flag first, text coming later. In addition, if we consider a classical Nazi co-belligerent, Finland, we can easily see that during the latter was at was with the USSR, so the co-belligerence issue is clear and non-controversial. The economic collaboration is not an argument: until the end of the US provided Japan with the oil which was vital for Japanese war efforts in Asia, and that does not make America the Axis' co-belligerent.
Note that 22, Allied officers taken prisoner-of-war including hundreds of Jews in Allied uniform, such Rabbi Boruch Steinberg by the Soviets were shot in mass graves by the Soviets at the Katyn Massacre in The reliable sources say this not the action of a neutral or non-belligerent power. Note, by the way, that I also motion the dominant role of the Soviets in the defeat of Hitler should be emphasised in the lede as per WP:RS data on number or troops committed and casualties taken.
However, WP policy requires us to present primarily a majority point of view, which implies that we have to identify it. I listed some reputable historians who do not consider the USSR as a co-belligerent obviously, we cannot even speak about its Axis membership.
Talk:World War II/Archive 43
Therefore, inclusion of the Soviet Union earnings on the Internet from 50 the infobox as Axis aligned or co-belligerent would reflect the opinion on some authors but reject the opinion of others probably, majority.
In addition, if we discuss only invasion of Poland, it is not clear for me why Soviet co-belligerence should be expanded until June Re Katyn, the problem is that the Soviet Union was not at war with Poland. Executions or deportations also cannot be considered as an act of war, because Stalin treated the Poles exactly in the same way as he treated other citizens of his state.
If we assume that execution of 22, was the act of war, then the execution of caSoviet citizens in was also the act of war against his own people which, in my opinion, was the case. Re "Axis aligned". This implies some dense political collaboration, which contradicts to what, e.
Gorodetsky says, namely, that never aligned with Germany clearly and unequivocally, because it always suspected that the alliance between the UK and Germany may be signed at any moment especially after the Hess' flightand he rather tried to maintain a balance between Britain and Germany.
That said, of course we lowly WP editors could have a fascinating debate either side of this ad infinitum, but I am sure we can agree that would be a tremendous waste of time.
We must concentrate on what the sources say rather than what we feel to be true, and we must include debate and controversy as per WP:LEDE. I motion for the Soviet flag as Axis-aligned because this is what it says in the sources at my disposal. The issue of the Vichy France flag remains open. It will basically be a summary of this map: Binary options strategy bagration.
If you want the statement about the state of war between Poland and the USSR to be included into the article, please provide the source that confirms, clearly and unequivocally, that the war was declared by either Poland or the USSR.
Please, read also this: "The outstanding and lasting feature of Soviet foreign binary options strategy bagration in the inter-war period, originating in the Allied intervention during the civil war, was a pathological suspicion that Germany and Britain might close ranks and mount a crusade against Russia. Events which had little direct bearing on Russia, such as the Locarno Treaty ofGermany's entry into the League of Nations the following year and the Munich Conference, were interpreted in this vein.
During the 'Phoney War', prospects of a separate peace which might set the German war machine rolling eastwards induced the Russians to launch their own mediatory efforts to put an end to the war. At the same time, measures were taken to establish a buffer zone in the wake of the failure to achieve security arrangements through diplomacy in the Is. Rees has extremely similar quotes saying Stalin was every bit as suspicious of Churchill and Roosevelt as he had had been of Hitler, especially because of their broken promises that the Invasion of Normandy would take place inthen inthen in even as the Jewish Holocaust accelerated and tens of millions of Soviet citizens were slaughtered by the Nazis.
Rees says Stalin saw the Western attitude toward him as bait and bleed. And yet, we say that the Big Three were Allies - Rees says this is because wartime propaganda has lasted until the present. So I don't quite buy it that stating Stalin was suspicious of Hitler logically means that he could not have been an ally of Hitler.
Stalin was just as binary options strategy bagration of his other one-time allies, Churchill and Roosevelt.
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We know he was a suspicious man, he was even suspicious of his own doctors. Besides, the threshold for inclusion is verifiabilityand we we have several sources describing the Nazis and Soviets as "allies".
Wow, that was extremely optimistic. Got a citation on that? But if not, I can clarify. Rees says Stalin constantly asked for a second front from the moment his alliance with Churchill started, then asked Roosevelt for the same. At best, the western allies allowed Stalin to thikn there would be a second front opened up, at worst they were disingeneous promises.
It is all in Rees, and in his PBS series. However if, against all expectations, Germany finds itself in a difficult situation, then she can be sure that the Soviet people will come to Germany's aid' Stalin's statement still shows how far he might have been prepared to go in pursuit of his alliance with Hitler, and it remains, binary options strategy bagration what was to happen later, an enormously embarrassing comment for him to have made" - Chumchum7 talk31 October UTC Also Paul Siebert you earlier said "In actuality, only invasion of Poland was connected to the pact directly.
This deliberately innocuous phrase could mean as little or as much to each of the participants as they search how to make money in. Eventually, of course, it was used to determine who should exercise control over various eastern European countries.
Stalin objected to the proposals, insisting that that the entire territory of Latvia fall within the 'Soviet sphere of influence. Ribbentrop felt unable to agree to Stalin's request without contacting Hitler. They were being deported on the orders of his ally, Stalin.
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Stalin,P. Their cooperation led to the Soviet acquisition of more than half of Poland For the Germans this transfer of territory represented peace on binary options strategy bagration borders and freedom to wage war on Western Europe. As I said in my original article, we don't know how the war would have proceeded without the treaty on borders and friendship; what we do know is that the war as it actually happened, with all of its atrocities, began with a German-Soviet alliance.
Few wanted to remember that two years later, when the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in Operation Barbarossa. Having demonstrated that 7 sources describe Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union as "allies", I am in a position to propose a change to the lede.
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I'll file the proposed change here within a day or two. Ergo 'official declaration of war' is not Wikipedia's threshold for inclusion of belligerent status.
In regards to 2 neither 'Russia' or 'USA' are in the lead and 3 the map is unsourced, but I'd be interested in seeing the textual changes along these lines you propose when they're ready.
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There'll be a better map for 3. Thanks to Paul Siebert who kindly fixed 2 with this edit  And on 1 I absolutely concur, it all comes down to what the sources say on a case by case basis. Occupation of Poland was a hostile act, however, no country declared a war on the USSR, so it remained neutral, and the level of cooperation between the USSR and Germany was minimal during the key phase of the invasion Sept 1- Sept War with Finland was not a war against someone's ally, so no other country declared a war on the USSR as a result of it.
The words "he might have been prepared to go in pursuit of his alliance' with Hitler" you refer to are the demonstration that there were no alliance although the negotiation about Soviet membership in the Axis did take place in Novthey were not successful.
Therefore, the quote from Reese directly contradicts to what your say.